When Democracy Dies

by Jay Kiskel

If you ever wondered what it looks like when democracy dies, you now have a front-row seat.   We are witnessing such a demise in our own denomination.  Hyperbole?  No.

Tipping Scales

When I submitted my name by petition to run for a position on the UUA Board of Trustees, I naively believed that the UUA administration would remain neutral and not tip the scales.  It is now apparent that my faith was sorely misplaced.

Just brought to my attention was a May 14, 2021, UU World article demonstrating the UUA Board’s willingness to use its administrative powers to tip the scales in this year’s trustee election.

“The UUA Board of Trustees endorses the UUA Nominating Committee’s three candidates for the Board, the Rev. Elizabeth Mount, JeKaren Oloya, and the Rev. Sam Trumbore.”

The rationale for this election intervention is an effort to install new board members who are committed to the recommendations from the Commission on Institutional Change’s report, Widening the Circle of Concern. This report is heavily flawed.  My call for a peer review of the report has been brushed aside.

This election intervention is an undeniable effort by our UU leadership team to self-select their members without being constrained by pesky UUs who believe in our Fifth Principle.  In our book, Used to be UU, we postulated that the Nominating Committee has become nothing more than “a gatekeeper to preserve the ideological mindset of the board.” We now know that our observation is true.

No Presidential Election

This effort to stifle democracy is not limited to the election of UUA Board of Trustee members.  The board has also offered a bylaw amendment at this year’s General Assembly to eliminate the only election that UUs are currently guaranteed. The proposed amendment to Section 9.5 reduces the number of candidates the Presidential Search Committee must put forward, lowering the requirement of “no fewer than two” to “one or more.” One candidate means no election.

The rationale for this proposal is most disturbing.  The first rationale is that requiring competitive races for the presidency of the Association is too costly.  The “cost argument” went out the door with the $5.3 million grant to Black Lives UU (BLUU).  We all spend our money on what we value.  The second rationale explains why democracy should be avoided.  Competitive democratic elections are “unnecessarily divisive.”   Democracy is messy but allows many voices to be heard.  Should our voices be silenced?

As Americans from all political persuasions decry Republicans passing bills to curtail voting access, our own UU leadership has conjured their own clever solution. Just wholly eliminate the election.  As the chairperson of the 2009 Fifth Principle Task Force once retorted, “We should get serious about governing ourselves democratically . . .” If not, let’s just rescind the Fifth Principle.

Larger Context: Suppression of Voices

This suppression of democratic processes must be seen in a larger context to suppress debate and dissent.  The 2019 controversy over The Gadfly Papers was a highly visible example of our UU leadership’s effort to ban ideas they find inconvenient.  The effort is ongoing.  As we earlier shared, UU leadership has banned the promotion of our book, Used to Be UU, at our General Assembly booth.  Frank recently asked if all booths are prohibited from promoting a book or was our book singled out?

The answer we received on June 1 confirmed that special treatment was applied. “Used to be UU makes critical claims about the UUA that generated concern from GA attendees.”

What is our UU leadership doing to UUism? 

We feel we provided an accurate and coherent recounting in Used to be UU of what is happening in UUism.  UUism is being betrayed by our own leadership in favor of a far more ecclesiastical organization where decisions at the top will no longer be subject to debate.  Voting among rank-and-file UU’s will be curtailed or stopped altogether.

We must all determine how much we are willing to be engaged in saving democracy, our liberal values, and the spirit of UUism.

Join the Fifth Principle Project

Join the Fifth Principle Project. It’s free. The Fifth Principle Project is an organic grassroots initiative to gather into community Unitarian Universalists who want to reinvigorate the right of conscience and renew the democratic process in the governing of our denomination.

Subscribe to Comments

Subscribe to comments to follow the comments from other readers.

3 8 votes
Article Rating
163 Comments
oldest
newest
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Matt
Matt
12 days ago

How very sad. Used to be UU too. It is no longer what it was. The new version is totalitarian. I contacted the leadership in support of the booth and multiple candidates. No response at all. How can anyone of good conscious have their children as part of this church any longer?

Floyd Vernon Chandler
Floyd Vernon Chandler
11 days ago
Reply to  Matt

This is a sad commentary on the state of contemporary Unitarian Universalism. This is not what I signed-up for 45 years ago.

Rev. Rick Davis
Rev. Rick Davis
12 days ago

I, too, noticed the glaring hypocrisy of UU World Magazine trumpeting the need to defend democracy in our country even as UU leaders deconstruct it in our association.
Talk about putting a thumb on the scale! With the entire board endorsing their selected candidate it’s more like putting an elephant on it.
I invite every UU who read Jay’s essay to reach out to any other UU’s you know in various congregations to alarm them to demise of our UU democracy before it’s too late.

Mariah Springstead
Mariah Springstead
12 days ago

I was just removed from the member rolls of my former home congregation. The stated reason was I failed to make a pledge or secure a ministerial waver during the spring canvas. Thing is, the new minister we got at the end of last summer took the step of calling me in the fall to inform me that as a straight white couple she did not think that our family deserved an extension of any charity from the church. even though my husband has been out of work since last March due to the pandemic. I’ve spoken to several UUs… Read more »

Paul Alan Thompson
Paul Alan Thompson
12 days ago

The minister actually said that “as a straight white couple”? She used those words? That’s completely appalling. What is the name of this bigot?

Mariah Springstead
Mariah Springstead
12 days ago

Of course not. Just implied that my husband shouldn’t be on unemployment and should switch career paths. (He works in live entertainment). We weren’t even asking for help at the time. She just knew that in the past we had needed help from the ministerial discretionary fund and preemptively was telling us she thought we were unworthy of help.

Krista
Krista
1 day ago

I would be interested in her perspective. When people come to me for multiple requests for ministerial discretionary money, it is appropriate to ask questions and to offer suggestions. Giving that money repeatedly to the same people takes it away from others. Did you ask her any questions to help you understand her perspective? Did you ask yourself what you could learn from the experience? And if she didn’t use the words “white heterosexual couple” why would you attribute them to her? Sounds like you were reading something into her words that might not have been there at all.

Mariah Springstead
Mariah Springstead
1 day ago
Reply to  Krista

I wasn’t asking.

Tom C
Tom C
11 hours ago
Reply to  Krista

I thought intent doesn’t matter, only impact?

Timothy E Siegel
12 days ago

How vile of her (your new minister). Sounds like something that might happen in Nazi Germany. “We don’t feel the need to extend any charity to Jews.”

Paul Alan Thompson
Paul Alan Thompson
12 days ago

Do you have these statements in actual writing on emails or anything? Did anyone hear this statement from her? I would try to get a letter in writing, and then make a huge problem of yourself. We don’t want racist race hustling bigots in the UU clergy.

Mariah Springstead
Mariah Springstead
12 days ago

I started trying to make “a huge problem of myself” and found I really don’t have it in me right now. with homeschooling two children at separate grade levels and everything that comes with that I can’t wage a war in my congregation right now.. I had to ask myself if I even wanted to stay in or raise my kids around that environment. In the end the answer was no.

Paul Alan Thompson
Paul Alan Thompson
12 days ago

Truly sad to hear. The drops in UU RE enrollment are very steep. People like you, normal people who want their kids to learn about other religions and how to live their life are instead getting propaganda about how white people are evil. I’m not shocked to hear that you walked away.

Tom Clowes
Tom Clowes
7 days ago

Paul, who are “normal people”?

Pedant
Pedant
10 hours ago
Reply to  Tom Clowes

He said “normal people who…”
According to the rules of English grammar, the part after the the word “who” is his description of “normal people”.

Krista
Krista
1 day ago

Are the abnormal people in our churches? How can you tell who they are? What makes people normal?

Timothy E Siegel
12 days ago

Thanks for clarifying. That does not sound quite as bad. But still difficult.

Dr Teresa Goodell
Dr Teresa Goodell
11 days ago

Mariah, I am with you. And I can see how that particular minister may well be discriminatory toward people like you and me: straight, white and skeptical of her queer ideology. Thinking of you.

Tom Clowes
Tom Clowes
5 days ago

How is an accusation that a minister is anti-White or anti-straight related to governance within the UUA, the ostensible purpose of FPP?

Timothy E Siegel
12 days ago

Truth wins in the end, but falsehood can do a great deal of harm, in the meantime.

Timothy E Siegel
12 days ago

Sadly, I think UU democracy is dead already. I’m out. I feel we should start a new church.

Schuyler
Schuyler
9 days ago

Right? This is our religious home that’s been infected with dogma… I suppose there’s good reason why an original sect of Unitarian churches remained as such. Perhaps we need to get back to some universalism nondogmatic roots.

Krista
Krista
1 day ago
Reply to  Schuyler

How is being committed to anti-racism dogmatic? Anti-racism invites us to question everything and to open our minds further than we could imagine. It is as Unitarian Universalist as it gets.

Krista
Krista
1 day ago

I’ve been to GA more times than I can count and year after year, the delegates who represent our congregations have voted to support anti-racist anti-oppression work. So how is democracy dying? Also, the UUA Nominating Committee is the democratically elected body responsible for building a slate of candidates for open positions, including the board. So how is the UUA Board, which is democratically elected, anti-democratic for supporting the nominees of the democratically elected Nominating Committee? I’m a little confused. I don’t see any problem with this at all. I support the work of the UUA Nominating Committee. They are… Read more »

Julie
Julie
12 days ago

I have attended UUCS for about 35-40 years! Nothing like this has ever happened in our wonderful church. Can we not just stop supporting UUA? What happens then? Is their a LAW that mandated every UU church to belong to UUA?

Timothy E Siegel
12 days ago
Reply to  Julie

I certainly believe that congregations should disassociate. I’m no expert, but if there is a critical mass at any church, I think that would be great.

Robin Bossert
Robin Bossert
12 days ago

Criticizing the Widening of Circle of Concern is beside the point. It will end up where far better studies have ended up. Nowhere. And linking the cost of elections to the funding of BLUU distracts from your main argument. Democracy is under attack in every corner of the planet, it shouldn’t be under attack in a liberal denomination. All your other points are terrific. How to enact the recommendations of the 2009 5th Principle Report is the real goal.

Frank Casper
Frank Casper
12 days ago
Reply to  Robin Bossert

There is a new VUU video that accuses us of illegitimately assuming the mantle of the 2009 5th Principle Report, among other accusations. It then goes on to suggest we are in league with the alt-right because they too offer free speech arguments and they too are opposed to CRT.

Marian Elizabeth Hennings
Marian Elizabeth Hennings
11 days ago
Reply to  Frank Casper

That accusation rankles. I guess those who make it about FPP would also agree that environmentalists and vegetarians are Nazis because Hitler, a vegetarian, was also concerned about air and water pollution from industry.

Krista
Krista
1 day ago
Reply to  Frank Casper

I’m confused as to why the Gadfly group and the Fifth Principle Project which grew out of it, which says promotes free speech has closed its facebook group and kicks out people who disagree with it? How is that supporting the free and responsible search for truth and meaning?

Jim
Jim
12 days ago

The less than 1% of UU’s who will be involved at GA will vote on a “Draft Statement of Conscience” https://www.uua.org/action/process/csais/draft-soc-undoing-systemic-white-supremacy It includes this: This call affirms the wealth of knowledge and vital guidance detailed in the UUA Commission on Institutional Change report, “Widening the Circle of Concern”. Unitarian Universalist organizations and individuals are called to implement the recommendations in this report as a means to release ourselves from the limits of systemic white supremacy, which are embedded in our structures and habits, so as to allow Unitarian Universalists to live our shared values more fully and freely. It is… Read more »

Paul Alan Thompson
Paul Alan Thompson
11 days ago
Reply to  Jim

There is no white supremacy culture in UUism. There, solved that nasty problem. What WE DO HAVE is a problem of race hustling and race exaggeration.

Tom Clowes
Tom Clowes
11 days ago

Of course there’s a White supremacy culture in UUism. There, problem unsolved.
Seriously, though, anti-Blackness is pretty pervasive and ubiquitous in majority-White institutions. If you don’t believe me, you can Google research on this subject or just listen to most Black folks. Confronting that anti-Blackness often makes White folks feel uncomfortable. If we White folks weren’t so prickly about these racial issues, we could better reckon with the work that needs doing.

Will
Will
11 days ago
Reply to  Tom Clowes

Frankly, Tom, your regular use of the latest woke jargon (“anti-blackness,” “white supremacy culture”– I assume you say “dismantle,” “covenantal,” “fragility” and “accountability” a lot too) comes across as rather comical.

The Simpson: Proactive, paradigm

Last edited 11 days ago by Will
Tom Clowes
Tom Clowes
10 days ago
Reply to  Will

Hi Will – that’s an interesting observation. I think a lot about this language in part because my job involves use of language involving sensitive topics. Like, is it a “Negro spiritual,” “African-American spiritual,” or just a “spiritual”? Native American, Indigenous, or American Indian? Person with a disability, disabled person, or Disabled person? Etc etc etc. At the same time I usually try not to avoid jargon. I was responding to someone else’s use of the term “white supremacy culture,” but do you have a better term for anti-Blackness? I watched the clip you linked to and actually it makes… Read more »

Krista
Krista
1 day ago
Reply to  Will

All the words that you are disparaging are very powerful and meaningful. They have reignited my commitment to Unitarian Universalism. The commitment to anti-racism and dismantling white supremacy culture is renewing our faith. I’m sorry that a small but vocal group is finding this threatening. This reactionary response is exactly the white supremacy that we need to address because its presence means that damage to people of color will continue and if left unchecked, our faith will become irrelevant.

Marian Elizabeth Hennings
Marian Elizabeth Hennings
11 days ago
Reply to  Jim

The same is true of UUs that is true of people who complain about the composition of our current Supreme Court. I know that I repeatedly warned people that we needed to vote for Democrats because of the Supreme Court. Enough people didn’t listen, so now we are stuck with a conservative majority on the Court.

Stephen Caldwell
1 day ago
Reply to  Jim

Jim wrote: The less than 1% of UU’s who will be involved at GA will vote on a “Draft Statement of Conscience” You may not be aware that the UUA General Assembly is a representative democratic body. The “less that 1%” concern raised here is a red herring given that the UUA bylaws provide 1 GA delegate for every 50 members. It’s slightly more complex than that but you can read Section 4.8 of the UUA Bylaws for the details (see page 7). The General Assembly as a representative body cannot be too much larger than 2% of our total… Read more »

Krista
Krista
1 day ago
Reply to  Jim

I am reading Widening the Circle right now and am deeply impressed by the depth of scholarly expertise and the wide ranging recommendations. This is a great piece of work. Implementing its recommendations will certainly help us become the people we want to be. I would encourage everyone to read it and to take it to heart.

Mimi Gingold
Mimi Gingold
12 days ago

Jay,
I have a question. I heard you criticized by a retired minister for not having given your willingness to serve to the nomination process of the board. I guess that means…you didn’t nominate yourself to the nomination process.?? Please respond.

Sharon Cameron
Sharon Cameron
11 days ago

I joined my UU congregation the first of 2007, having left a different denomination that preached love and acceptance, but the board fell into secrecy and attack and finally excommunicated many people. (This sounds way too familiar now.) When I came for the first time to my UU congregation, I saw and felt thrilled by the little sign at the entrance to our parking lot. It had been developed years before as short hand for our 7 Principles. “We believe in Religious Freedom, Spiritual Growth and Ethical Action.” Because of what I had come from, I waited for months and… Read more »

Will
Will
11 days ago

It’s curious when UUA leaders both wax about “It’s the will of UUs across the nation” and require the suppression of democratic processes and representation to get it enacted.

The UUA’s and UU World’s promotion of “Democracy for the country!” “Every Vote is Precious” and “UU the Vote” while dismantling democracy within UU and UUA is the height of naked hypocrisy.

It makes the whole “UU the Vote” campaign appear to be nothing more than a virtue-signaling PR stunt for the outside world.

Mark Perloe
Mark Perloe
11 days ago

Unless we defund both our UU congregations and the UUA we are personally responsible for supporting their racist, fascist approach to addressing racism in America. I used to be UU and valued our beliefs and generously funded efforts to further our shared beliefs. No more. I now believe that the only viable means to preserve UU principles and fight racism is to work to end the UUA and UUMA.

Tom Clowes
Tom Clowes
11 days ago

Jay, Fifth Principle Project “was started in response to the April 2017 decision to declare that the Unitarian Universalism Association (UUA) was based on white supremacy culture.” A recent publication on this site says anti-racist UUs of color are on “a quest for power (and money), disguised in “caring” rhetoric.” Do you stand by this claim?

Frank Casper
Frank Casper
11 days ago
Reply to  Tom Clowes

Your last two posts, one repeated, seek to impart a racist motive to others, including Jay. Your insistence in this is itself racist in that you seek to use racism to make yourself out as virtuous. You’re doing nothing more here than virtue signaling. It’s obvious and a bore.

Tom Clowes
Tom Clowes
10 days ago
Reply to  Frank Casper

Frank, is it too much to ask for a response from Jay to this question? Frank, let me tell you a bit about who I am and what motivates me. About 20 years ago, I first went to Haiti to teach music, and I’ve been going every year since. The country I know – the first Black republic, founded on the world’s largest and most successful slave revolution against what was then the world’s most powerful army led by Napoleon, a country rich in history, art, culture, civil society, storytelling, language, and religion – has nothing to do with the… Read more »

Frank Casper
Frank Casper
9 days ago
Reply to  Tom Clowes

I appreciate your background, Tom, but all it means in this context is that you want to use it to accuse 5PP of racism. When you first made this accusation, combined as it was with an accusation of transphobia, you offered nothing by way of support for it. Now you claim to have documented a racist double standard in one line from one article here, and this only by turning the remark into a declaration requiring someone here, primarily Jay, to disown it. That is not a discovery of anything but your own willful insertion of a racist intent. You… Read more »

Tom Clowes
Tom Clowes
9 days ago
Reply to  Frank Casper

Frank, even if I am “fundamentally dishonest,” “racist, “a troll,” “self-admiring,” “a pain in the ass,” and “virtue signaling” – all things you’ve said about me – my arguments are no less valid.

Frank Casper
Frank Casper
9 days ago
Reply to  Tom Clowes

That’s because what your calling an argument is nothing but an accusation. And that accusation is “no less valid” because it had no validity to begin with.

Tom Clowes
Tom Clowes
9 days ago
Reply to  Frank Casper

Is it a crazy idea then to debate my ideas rather than attack me personally? Can we agree that personal attacks are inappropriate?

Last edited 9 days ago by Tom Clowes
Frank Casper
Frank Casper
9 days ago
Reply to  Tom Clowes

You’re not interested in debating ideas. All you want to discuss is how racist and homophobic we are. Everything else is window dressing. You brought this attack on our character and now you’re whining that you’re being called dishonest for it. If you don’t like it, don’t do it.

Tom Clowes
Tom Clowes
9 days ago
Reply to  Frank Casper

Jay, Frank, you can’t publish attacks against people of color and then say it’s unfair when you get called out for it.

Frank Casper
Frank Casper
9 days ago
Reply to  Tom Clowes

You’re lying. We didn’t publish any attacks on POC.

Tom Clowes
Tom Clowes
9 days ago
Reply to  Frank Casper

Questioning what Christina Rivera said about her heart trouble isn’t an attack on people of color?

Frank Casper
Frank Casper
9 days ago
Reply to  Tom Clowes

No. I’d explain this to you, but it would only come across as condescending since such simple distinctions should not have to be explained to adults.

Tom Clowes
Tom Clowes
9 days ago
Reply to  Frank Casper

How can I be convinced by your viewpoint if you don’t share it?

Tom Clowes
Tom Clowes
9 days ago
Reply to  Frank Casper

Also, if you send me a copy of “Used to Be UU,” I will read it and send you a copy of “Why Are All the Black Kids Sitting Together at the Cafeteria” if you’ll read it?

Frank Casper
Frank Casper
9 days ago
Reply to  Tom Clowes

If you want to read it, buy a copy.

Tom Clowes
Tom Clowes
9 days ago
Reply to  Frank Casper

I can’t buy a copy of your book because I don’t know if the purchase supports my values. If I make a donation to the National Urban League or NAACP for the amount of the price of your book and send you a copy of the receipt, would you send me a copy of your book? And would you read a book of my choice?

Frank Casper
Frank Casper
9 days ago
Reply to  Tom Clowes

Yeah, that’s the same criteria every college and graduate school uses when deciding curriculum for their students. 🙄 But at least you’re not alone. Many within UU leadership now find the promotion of the 5th principle to be against their values.

Tom Clowes
Tom Clowes
9 days ago
Reply to  Frank Casper

Frank, how can I believe you don’t publish attacks on people of color when you published an attack on Christina Rivera and other people of color, denied it was an attack, and then refused to provide evidence for your claim?

Frank Casper
Frank Casper
9 days ago
Reply to  Tom Clowes

You’re gonna believe what you already clearly want to believe. I’m not here to persuade you because you have adequately demonstrated your commitment to your prejudices. You’ve more than demonstrated you’re not worth such an effort. When I post, I’m talking to the others who read our page.

Tom Clowes
Tom Clowes
9 days ago
Reply to  Frank Casper

OK, Frank. Will Jay respond to my question?

Frank Casper
Frank Casper
9 days ago
Reply to  Tom Clowes

That’s his choice. But I hope not, and for the same reasons.

Tom Clowes
Tom Clowes
7 days ago
Reply to  Frank Casper

Frank, can you acknowledge that I’ve been personally attacked on this website by you and others? You’ve called me “racist,” “a troll,” “virtue signaling,” a “liar,” lacking adult comprehension, and others have said I “seem to have mental problems” and so forth. A minister said I was “perhaps educable.” Or can you only acknowledge statements I’ve made that, to my regret, feel like personal attacks to you?

Last edited 7 days ago by Tom Clowes
CB Beal
2 days ago
Reply to  Tom Clowes

Hi Tom, I note that Frank still didn’t address the contempt and namecalling used toward you and others who challenge their ideas. In fact, Frank doubled down and said “You’ve more than demonstrated you’re not worth such an effort.” I am grateful for your presence here and willingness to name some of the challenges of the ideas behind 5PP and Jay’s candidacy. I am sorry that Jay hasn’t responded to your question, but instead lets Frank attack you in what appears to be a deflection. If anyone is following along this remarkably long thread, this is the question deflected, “Jay, Fifth… Read more »

Frank Casper
Frank Casper
2 days ago
Reply to  CB Beal

You are late to this party CB. As to name calling, that started with Mr. Clowes, who persisted in his insinuation that the members of 5PP are racist and transphobic, and indulge in attacks on POC. That appears to be just fine with you. As to your last repeated accusation from Tom, the piece he takes a single sentence from does not address POC. That made no difference to Tom and I suspect it doesn’t with your either.

Tom Clowes
Tom Clowes
12 hours ago
Reply to  Frank Casper

Frank, as I understand it, you believe that questioning Christina Rivera’s statement that she had heart trouble that sent her to the hospital from the stress of the UUA’s White supremacy culture is NOT an attack on people of color. Is that correct? As I understand it, you also believe that Christina Rivera and others who “promote the harm principle,” those “who claim to care so much about ‘beloved community,'” who engage in “a culture of victimhood,” are NOT UUs of color or their allies? Is that correct? What strikes me, even if we disagree about who is being attacked,… Read more »

Jim
Jim
1 day ago
Reply to  CB Beal

This is a tedious exercise in straw-man polemics; creating a false mischaracterization in which to ladle ad hominems upon an opponent for something they did not say (note where the quotation marks begin and end). Please examine your reasons for stooping to such bad faith argumentation.

Ben
Ben
1 day ago
Reply to  CB Beal

Do you have the full quote? I think I found the blog you reference but don’t see it say anything about UUs of color. The vast majority of UUs (and people) getting more power (right or wrong) through anti-racist caring rhetoric are white people.

Tom Clowes
Tom Clowes
12 hours ago
Reply to  Ben

From FPP: “Questions naturally arise about the cause of the damage to Ms. Rivera’s heart: did her doctor determine that it was indeed caused by “white supremacy?” Raising such questions is a delicate and very dangerous thing to do, but what is clear is that her statement was powerful and had a powerful effect upon the UU Board. If white supremacy within UUism has reached such an extent that it is destroying the lives and damaging the heart muscles of people of color then it is an emergency that must and should take priority over all other principles. If it is… Read more »

Tom Clowes
Tom Clowes
11 days ago

The idea that the UUA can’t be concerned about any expense because they’ve previously pledged and given money to Black Lives of UU makes as much sense as saying, “Honey, you can’t be concerned about the cost of my box seat baseball tickets because we’ve already spent so much on our mortgage.” Instead this just seems like a gratuitous almost-attack on giving money to an organization of Black UUs. Otherwise I think the points raised here are fair and worth consideration.

Robert Hedeen
Robert Hedeen
11 days ago
Reply to  Tom Clowes

There he is – hiya, Tom! We’ve missed your passive-aggressive trolls. “Please inform me of where I have erred”. Always the cherry on the sundae in these comments.

Tom Clowes
Tom Clowes
10 days ago
Reply to  Robert Hedeen

Hiya Robert! If there’s a way I can be more direct in my communication so it doesn’t come across as passive-aggressive, please do let me know! At the same time, even if I am the most passive-aggressive troll in the world, I don’t believe that makes Jay’s argument that money spent in one way negates all concerns about money spent in another way any more valid.

Lee
Lee
11 days ago

The way I see it, racism is still present despite years of efforts to eradicate it. Also, Widening of Circle of Concern contains many suggestions to help us eradicate racism.

Is this document perfect? Certainly not — do any documents ever reach that caliber? However, let’s not throw out the baby with the bathwater. Please pick and choose those suggestions that are most appropriate for your congregation and start the process of consideration and, with congregational approval, start the implementation. Or create some ideas of your own. Together we can beat racism!

Will
Will
10 days ago
Reply to  Lee

Good points. As you point out, one does not have to use WTCOC at all to combat racism. There are many, and I’d argue better, ways.

Frank Casper
Frank Casper
10 days ago
Reply to  Will

No. These are not really good points. Read the UU World for Spring of 2021, page 41. It announces a 5 year plan by the UUA to implement the recommendations of the COIC report. “This is not just another initiative, said UUA’s Executive Vice President Carey McDonald. It’s at the center of all our initiatives for the coming years. It’s the foundation.”

That is not a pick and choose approach.

Amy Zucker Morgenstern
Reply to  Frank Casper

Sure it is. You seem to be confusing the UUA with individual congregations. Mr. McDonald said this report will be the foundation of much of the UUA’s work for the coming years. That doesn’t mean that each congregation will make it the foundation of theirs. In my congregation, we’re studying bits and pieces, and applying things that seem to be a good fit for our challengers and goals. I doubt we’ll even study the whole thing, much less apply it wholesale; that’s not to cast shade on the COIC or the book, just being realistic about how a largely volunteer-led… Read more »

Frank Casper
Frank Casper
2 days ago

Our analysis of what the UUA is up to hinges partly on how they view church polity and congregational autonomy. We supply a quote in our book from the COIC Report which sums it up well, “the idea that the UUA can’t tell us what to do is bologna.” Our book is about the politics and theology of leadership, and their intention to push this down to the congregations.

CB Beal
2 days ago
Reply to  Frank Casper

Hi Frank, I notice in your reply to Amy Zucker Morgenstern that you selected a partial quote about oscar meyer there. It’s not as simple as the old advertising jingle with just a couple of words. Our faith isn’t a collection of excerpted jingles to make a point. The larger context of the tiny pull quote you note (and there’s a link below) is: “Agility, flexibility, and innovation, along with a clear focus on mission, will be an important aspect of faith-based organizations that hope to survive the rapidly changing religious landscape in the United States. [11] As we heard from… Read more »

Frank Casper
Frank Casper
2 days ago
Reply to  CB Beal

And your lengthy attempt at context obviates my quote how? Not at all. It’s smoke and mirrors. My brief quote is the heart of the matter.

Tom C
Tom C
1 day ago
Reply to  CB Beal

“We are in a voluntary relationship with each other and … maybe we shouldn’t be a UU church anymore if we aren’t willing to commit to things and work together.”  I attend a UU church for spiritual renewal, growth, and community. The UUA seem committed to anti-racist work and while I agree with some things and disagree with others, I don’t want to listen to a sermon every week about oppression. I don’t want to attend anti-racist workshops or book groups. I appreciate Jay and Frank tackling the “how” of what’s happening to the UUA. I am alarmed at the “what” the… Read more »

Jim
Jim
1 day ago
Reply to  Tom C

I agree with everything you say here. My problem is where can I go to find an alternative place for, as you say, spiritual renewal, growth, and community? I, too, want no part of what UUism seems to be becoming.

The question is, how many former UU’s feel the same way? I believe it is a large enough number to indicate that the present course of the UUA is a terrible mistake.

Tom Clowes
Tom Clowes
12 hours ago
Reply to  Jim

Tom C and Jim, on the one hand, anti-racism messages can make White folks feel uncomfortable, even if that’s not their design. On the other hand, racism puts the physical safety of people of color in danger, to the extent that being Black in the US shaves about 4 years off of someone’s life expectancy, and where Black moms are three times more likely as White moms to die giving birth in the US. Which is more important – the comfort of White people, or the physical safety of people of color?

Tom C
Tom C
11 hours ago
Reply to  Tom Clowes

You don’t get to define how I feel. That stupid “anti-racism messages can make White folks feel uncomfortable” phrase is gaslighting.

Calling me a racist every week in church doesn’t save any black people from death.

Tom C
Tom C
10 hours ago
Reply to  Tom Clowes

And another thing…if the UUA is so concerned about Black lives, why didn’t they give that $5.3 million to a medical school to combat maternal deaths for black women. Or maybe $5.3 million dollars in scholarships.

But instead my $6000 pledge is used to pay a minister to call me a racist every Sunday. Why hasn’t the UUA insist that I take that $6000 and pay the tuition for Black students at the local community college?

Last edited 10 hours ago by Tom C
Tom Clowes
Tom Clowes
9 days ago
Reply to  Lee

Lee, I agree.

Tom Clowes
Tom Clowes
9 days ago

The unspoken ideology of Fifth Principle Project is that people of color or their allies can be freely attacked but pro-White folks can’t be questioned. I document this here: https://www.facebook.com/tom.clowes.758/videos/10157711692236261/

Will
Will
9 days ago
Reply to  Tom Clowes

Tom, do you have mental problems? I say that in all seriousness. You come across as someone with issues, and you’re getting worse. Though I know the pandemic has been hard on many of us.

Your repeated false attacks and smears of fellow UUs– implying that those who disagree with you are racists, alt-right. transphobic, against racial justice– also doesn’t make you come across as a good person.

Your above first sentence is, of course obviously patently false, and, frankly, nonsensical as a claim.

Last edited 9 days ago by Will
Tom Clowes
Tom Clowes
8 days ago
Reply to  Will

Hi Will, I’m happy to engage in debate and have laid out my argument in detail in my video – but when I receive ad hominem attacks I can only assume you haven’t a single legitimate argument left.
Your comment provides a good example of how some people here are allowed to use baseless ad hominem attacks and others aren’t.

Will
Will
7 days ago
Reply to  Tom Clowes

I don’t believe you know what ad hominem attack/argument means. But I take back my first paragraph. That is fair for a discussion forum.

Tom Clowes
Tom Clowes
7 days ago
Reply to  Will

Will, thank you for taking back your first paragraph. I appreciate that.
You say my argument is “patently false” and “nonsensical,” but I presented evidence for my claim and you’ve presented none for your rebuttal. If you have evidence, let’s see it. If you don’t, your rebuttal is meaningless.

Dennis McCarty
Dennis McCarty
1 day ago
Reply to  Tom Clowes

Agreed.

Dennis McCarty
Dennis McCarty
1 day ago
Reply to  Will

@ Will: insults are not rational discussion, they’re only insults. I’ve found Tom’s comments to be thoughtful–sometimes challenging–but often quite insightful. I’ve learned from them.

Reason, not insults, please..

Betty-Jeanne Rueters-Ward
Betty-Jeanne Rueters-Ward
5 days ago

Mr. Kiskel, I’m a lifelong UU, and a graduate of and professor at one of our UU seminaries. In a recent event, you said that “critical race theory” is incompatible with UU values – I believe your words were that “It is not possible for ‘critical race theory’ and UU values to coexist.” What do you mean when you say “critical race theory”? Are you referring to our anti-racism efforts? You also stated that “critical race theory” has taken root at our UU seminaries. What do you mean by this? Do you believe our UU seminaries are odds with UU… Read more »

Betty-Jeanne Rueters-Ward
Betty-Jeanne Rueters-Ward
4 days ago
Reply to  WebMaster

Thank you for responding. I’ve read your book, but unfortunately it doesn’t address my questions. In fact, your response here raises further questions: In my experience with UU anti-racism programs over the last twenty years or so, there is no one method used – far from it! Which is the method you are referring to when you say “critical race theory”? What method/s would you suggest instead for countering racism within and beyond our UU communities? I’m still unclear what you mean when you say “critical race theory”. Your statements about it have included: “’Critical race theory’ is the most… Read more »

Betty-Jeanne Rueters-Ward
Betty-Jeanne Rueters-Ward
3 days ago
Reply to  WebMaster

Thank you for responding. I’ve read your book, but unfortunately it doesn’t address my questions. In fact, your response here raises further questions: In my experience with UU anti-racism programs over the last twenty years or so, there is no one method used – far from it! Which is the method you are referring to when you say “critical race theory”? What method/s would you suggest instead for countering racism within and beyond our UU communities? I’m still unclear what you mean when you say “critical race theory”. Your statements about it have included: “’Critical race theory’ is the most… Read more »

Betty-Jeanne Rueters-Ward
Betty-Jeanne Rueters-Ward
3 days ago
Reply to  WebMaster

Thank you for responding. I’ve read your book, but unfortunately it doesn’t address my questions. In fact, your response here raises further questions: In my experience with UU anti-racism programs over the last twenty years or so, there is no one method used – far from it! Which is the method you are referring to when you say “critical race theory”? What method/s would you suggest instead for countering racism within and beyond our UU communities? I’m still unclear what you mean when you say “critical race theory”. Your statements about it have included: “’Critical race theory’ is the most… Read more »

Betty-Jeanne
Betty-Jeanne
3 days ago
Reply to  WebMaster

Thank you for responding. I’ve read your book, but unfortunately it doesn’t address my questions. In fact, your response here raises further questions: In my experience with UU anti-racism programs over the last twenty years or so, there is no one method used – far from it! Which is the method you are referring to when you say “critical race theory”? What method/s would you suggest instead for countering racism within and beyond our UU communities? I’m still unclear what you mean when you say “critical race theory”. Your statements about it have included: “’Critical race theory’ is the most… Read more »

Betty-Jeanne Rueters-Ward
Betty-Jeanne Rueters-Ward
3 days ago
Reply to  WebMaster

Thank you for responding. I’ve read your book, but unfortunately it doesn’t address my questions. In fact, your response here raises further questions: In my experience with UU anti-racism programs over the last twenty years or so, there is no one method used – far from it! Which is the method you are referring to when you say “critical race theory”? What method/s would you suggest instead for countering racism within and beyond our UU communities? I’m still unclear what you mean when you say “critical race theory”. Your statements about it have included: “’Critical race theory’ is the most… Read more »

Betty-Jeanne
Betty-Jeanne
3 days ago
Reply to  WebMaster

Thank you for responding. I’ve read your book, but unfortunately it doesn’t address my questions. In fact, your response here raises further questions: In my experience with UU anti-racism programs over the last twenty years or so, there is no one method used – far from it! Which is the method you are referring to when you say “critical race theory”? What method/s would you suggest instead for countering racism within and beyond our UU communities? I’m still unclear what you mean when you say “critical race theory”. Your statements about it have included: “’Critical race theory’ is the most… Read more »

Professor Reuters-Ward
Professor Reuters-Ward
3 days ago
Reply to  WebMaster

Thank you for responding. I’ve read your book, but unfortunately it doesn’t address my questions. In fact, your response here raises further questions: In my experience with UU anti-racism programs over the last twenty years or so, there is no one method used – far from it! Which is the method you are referring to when you say “critical race theory”? What method/s would you suggest instead for countering racism within and beyond our UU communities? I’m still unclear what you mean when you say “critical race theory”. Your statements about it have included: “’Critical race theory’ is the most… Read more »

Amy Zucker Morgenstern

Hi, Jay–even though I don’t believe we’ve met in person, I hope a first-name basis is okay between UUs. Please call me Amy. I have a similar question to Betty-Jeanne’s, and while I will read your book with interest, the election is in two weeks, and I can’t manage it before then. So perhaps you could give a brief explanation of the conflict you perceive between critical race theory and our UU values, or just quote a relevant paragraph of the book? Like many members of the congregation with which I serve, I find critical race theory admirably compatible with… Read more »

Frank Casper
Frank Casper
3 days ago

Thank you Amy for your questions. But I think I can speak for Jay. Our book answers your questions. I’m sorry you’ve not the time between now and the election to read it with those questions in minds, but I know that Jay’s campaign is time consuming and he does not have the bandwidth to repeat what we have already supplied.

Betty-Jeanne
Betty-Jeanne
3 days ago
Reply to  Frank Casper

I’m concerned that a number of important questions and concerns have been posted here (or submitted for posting at least), which have not otherwise been answered.

Yet the response here has been “go read the book”. The book doesn’t answer the questions posed, and it’s disconcerting that this would be the response to UUs with genuine questions and concerns.

I can appreciate that the campaign is time consuming, but I hope that engaging with constituents about their concerns will be a part of it.

Frank Casper
Frank Casper
3 days ago
Reply to  Betty-Jeanne

I know you’re having trouble with a particular post and I’ve told you repeatedly on chat that I will try to look into it. But you’ve persisted in insinuating on chat that we are blocking your post. It is because of these insinuations that I am less interested in finding out what the problem is. And yes, the book does answer the questions posed. So read it with those questions in mind rather than cruising for what you’ve elsewhere called falsehoods.

i love it when we're cruisin' together
i love it when we're cruisin' together
3 days ago
Reply to  Frank Casper

Frank, but I want to reinvigorate the right of conscience and renew the democratic process! I need to see what Betty-Jeanne says in order to form my independent opinion unbridled by censorship; otherwise, how can I live by this ideal?

Frank Casper
Frank Casper
3 days ago

Well, most of the writings of antiquity were lost to us, and we still seemed to find our way. I’ll try to find our what happened to Betty-Jeans one post on this page, but I think if you try you can find your way to independence. Besides, she’s left such a legacy on Facebook.

Betty-Jeanne
Betty-Jeanne
3 days ago
Reply to  Frank Casper

Indeed, I’m concerned that some of my questions and comments won’t be granted approval, and I’m not sure why. Let me try again. This is in response to Mr. Kiskel’s and my initial exchange: Mr. Kiskel, I’ve read your book, but unfortunately it doesn’t address my questions. In fact, your response to my comment here raises further questions: In my experience with UU anti-racism programs over the last twenty years or so, there is no one method used – far from it! Which is the method you are referring to when you say “critical race theory”? What method/s would you… Read more »

david
david
2 days ago
Reply to  Frank Casper

I just noticed that Betty-Jeanne has a recent post with questions in the previous page. I assume that is the missing post.

Last edited 2 days ago by david
Betty-Jeanne
Betty-Jeanne
2 days ago
Reply to  david

No, David, that is not the missing post. You’re referring to a comment I left about another topic, elsewhere.

I’ve attempted multiple times to post my questions, each time being told they require approval. I’ve let Frank know about this, and have yet to receive such approval.

david
david
2 days ago
Reply to  Betty-Jeanne

Okay.

Amy Zucker Morgenstern
Reply to  Frank Casper

Hi, Frank! I appreciate that Jay is busy and that you’re answering some of these questions as his proxy. That’s fine, but if you’re the co-author surely you could paste in a short explanation as well. I’m busy too. I’m a pa arish minister, it’s June of a very hard year, and I am as crispy as burned toast, but still have a couple of Sundays and a lot of planning before I can take some long-deferred vacation. I’m just trying to be an informed delegate, and as this is the heart of Jay’s criticism of the UUA’s current direction,… Read more »

Stephen Caldwell
1 day ago
Reply to  Frank Casper

Frank wrote:

Our book answers your questions.

If your book is turning into de facto campaign literature, you might want to provide it free of charge. After all, it’s your book and you should be able to make this possible.

It’s rare to have a political campaign put its position papers behind a paywall.

Frank Casper
Frank Casper
1 day ago

You might consider directing that suggestion at the executive VP if the UUA, as it was his stipulation that in order for us to have a booth at GA, we could not have the title of “Fifth Principle Project” nor could we promote our book in any way. The paywall you allege and complain about was created by leadership.

Stephen Caldwell
1 day ago
Reply to  Frank Casper

Frank Casper wrote:

The paywall you allege and complain about was created by leadership.

The virtual booths at GA for Jay’s candidacy are not the only way one can distribute campaign literature.

You could have a link for your book as a PDF on the Fifth Principle Project web site instead of putting it behind a paywall on Amazon.

I’m pretty sure that the UUA does not have jurisdiction over the Fifth Principle Project web site’s content.

If your book is de facto campaign literature, you shouldn’t expect people to pay for it in order to read it.

Tim Bartik
3 days ago

Amy: We have interacted before at your blog, discussing Ursula K. LeGuin. As you may recall, I am an empirically and policy-oriented economist. I am not a big fan of critical race theory. What I would say is that where it is true, it is mostly not original. Where it is original, it is mostly not true. And in general, I don’t think that critical race theory is particularly useful in finding solutions to racial inequities. In terms of the two examples you pointed out, I think that they are both cases where CRT is true, but not original, which… Read more »

Another attempt to post
Another attempt to post
2 days ago

(NOTE: This comment below is a follow up to my – Betty Jeanne’s – previous comments. I’ve been having trouble getting approval for my comments, and am attempting to post under a different name / heading. Apologies for the confusion.) Mr. Kiskel – and whomever else might be interested in these matters: Here are some articles detailing “the war on critical race theory”, which I recommend to all. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/13/opinion/critical-race-theory.html http://bostonreview.net/race-politics/david-theo-goldberg-war-critical-race-theory https://portside.org/2021-06-07/how-critical-race-theory-became-new-conservative-bogeyman https://www.edweek.org/leadership/what-is-critical-race-theory-and-why-is-it-under-attack/2021/05 https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2021/05/gops-critical-race-theory-fixation-explained/618828 Here is common reference point that might be helpful: Dr. Elias Ortega, a longtime scholar of critical race theory and President of one of our UU seminaries,… Read more »

Betty-Jeanne
Betty-Jeanne
2 days ago

Mr. Kiskel, I’ve read your book, but unfortunately it doesn’t address my questions. In fact, your response to my comment here raises further questions: In my experience with UU anti-racism programs over the last twenty years or so, there is no one method used – far from it! Which is the method you are referring to when you say “critical race theory”? What method/s would you suggest instead for countering racism within and beyond our UU communities? I’m still unclear what you mean when you say “critical race theory”. Your statements about it have included: “’Critical race theory’ is the… Read more »

Betty-Jeanne Rueters-Ward
Betty-Jeanne Rueters-Ward
3 days ago

Thank you for responding, Mr. Kiskel. (For some reason responding directly to your comment is not working, but I’m referring to our earlier exchange. I’ve read your book, but unfortunately it doesn’t address my questions. In fact, your response here raises further questions: In my experience with UU anti-racism programs over the last twenty years or so, there is no one method used – far from it! Which is the method you are referring to when you say “critical race theory”? What method/s would you suggest instead for countering racism within and beyond our UU communities? I’m still unclear what… Read more »

Ben
Ben
2 days ago

“Critical race theory” in this context I think is a bad term. I don’t think Frank is referring to the actual legal theory that came to life decades ago. I imagine he is talking about how some people who call themselves anti-racists associate many liberal traditions, such as objectivity, with white supremacy and the idea that “western” (also not a great term) values are white supremacist. The minister at my UU church shared with us a list of white culture that includes things like objectivity, timeliness, the scientific method, strong work ethic. I get that their are theorists who believe… Read more »

MegVis
MegVis
3 days ago

Wow I find this really interesting…

Betty-Jeanne
Betty-Jeanne
3 days ago
Reply to  MegVis

I agree, Megan. Mr. Kiskel, I’ve read your book, but unfortunately it doesn’t address my questions. In fact, your response to my comment here raises further questions: In my experience with UU anti-racism programs over the last twenty years or so, there is no one method used – far from it! Which is the method you are referring to when you say “critical race theory”? What method/s would you suggest instead for countering racism within and beyond our UU communities? I’m still unclear what you mean when you say “critical race theory”. Your statements about it have included: “’Critical race… Read more »

MegVis
MegVis
3 days ago
Reply to  MegVis

Surely, you cannot be running on the platform of saving UUism from itself…that won’t fill those “front seats” you’re sitting in, and it certainly won’t be a foundation on which to build faithful and caring leadership. Democracy would be more likely to die from a bully (or cluster of bullies) who needles their way into power than a broad-based coalition of collaborators. For instance, when I’ve been involved in antiracism efforts in the UUA, there’s been diverse methods and open invitations to participate. The critical race theory you describe is unrecognizable to the experiences I have had with countering oppressions… Read more »

Frank Casper
Frank Casper
3 days ago
Reply to  MegVis

Many thanks for your resume.

MegVis
MegVis
3 days ago
Reply to  Frank Casper

Are you speaking for Jay or is this your personal reply?

Frank Casper
Frank Casper
3 days ago
Reply to  MegVis

When I think I’m speaking for Jay I’ll say so.

Last edited 1 day ago by WebMaster
MegVis
MegVis
2 days ago
Reply to  Frank Casper

I asked a few questions and think it’s hardly accurate to characterize my response as a resume.

Betty-Jeanne
Betty-Jeanne
3 days ago

Thank you for responding, Mr. Kiskel. I’ve read your book, but unfortunately it doesn’t address my questions. In fact, your response here raises further questions: In my experience with UU anti-racism programs over the last twenty years or so, there is no one method used – far from it! Which is the method you are referring to when you say “critical race theory”? What method/s would you suggest instead for countering racism within and beyond our UU communities? I’m still unclear what you mean when you say “critical race theory”. Your statements about it have included: “’Critical race theory’ is… Read more »

Betty-Jeanne
Betty-Jeanne
3 days ago

Thank you for responding Mr. Kiskel. (Unfortunately I don’t seem able to post directly in response to your comment to me.) I’ve read your book, but unfortunately it doesn’t address my questions. In fact, your response here raises further questions: In my experience with UU anti-racism programs over the last twenty years or so, there is no one method used – far from it! Which is the method you are referring to when you say “critical race theory”? What method/s would you suggest instead for countering racism within and beyond our UU communities? I’m still unclear what you mean when… Read more »

Will this post be approved?
Will this post be approved?
2 days ago

Mr. Kiskel, in response to our earlier exchange: I’ve read your book, but unfortunately it doesn’t address my questions. In fact, your response to my comment here raises further questions:   In my experience with UU anti-racism programs over the last twenty years or so, there is no one method used – far from it! Which is the method you are referring to when you say “critical race theory”? What method/s would you suggest instead for countering racism within and beyond our UU communities?   I’m still unclear what you mean when you say “critical race theory”. Your statements about… Read more »

I hope this post will be approved.
I hope this post will be approved.
2 days ago

Mr. Kiskel – and whomever else might be interested: Here are some articles detailing “the war on critical race theory”, which I recommend to all.   https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/13/opinion/critical-race-theory.html   http://bostonreview.net/race-politics/david-theo-goldberg-war-critical-race-theory   https://portside.org/2021-06-07/how-critical-race-theory-became-new-conservative-bogeyman   https://www.edweek.org/leadership/what-is-critical-race-theory-and-why-is-it-under-attack/2021/05   Here is common reference point that might be more helpful:   Dr. Elias Ortega, a longtime scholar of critical race theory and President of one of our UU seminaries, describes its origins as well as how it’s used (and misused) in current discourse. I recommend it to all UUs. His comments begin around 11:00:   https://youtu.be/V6lUM8IdO9w I look forward to hearing more from you, Mr. Kiskel.… Read more »

Testing for comment approval
Testing for comment approval
2 days ago

(NOTE: This comment, and the one proceeding it posted as “Will this be approved?” are a continuing of my – Betty Jeanne’s – prior exchange with Mr. Kiskel, which I was able to post using my own name and email. I have been unable to post these subsequent comments, with an indication that they would require approval, which I let Mr. Casper know about. This approval has not yet been granted, thus I am using a different name to see if that will allow me to post.) Mr. Kiskel – and whomever else might be interested: Here are some articles… Read more »

Hopeful for comment approval
Hopeful for comment approval
2 days ago

(NOTE: This comment, and the one proceeding it posted as “Will this be approved?” are a continuing of my – Betty Jeanne’s – prior exchange with Mr. Kiskel, which I was able to post using my own name and email. I have been unable to post these subsequent comments, with an indication that they would require approval, which I let Mr. Casper know about. This approval has not yet been granted, thus I am using a different name to see if that will allow me to post.) Mr. Kiskel – and whomever else might be interested: Here are some articles… Read more »

I hope this post will be approved.
I hope this post will be approved.
2 days ago

(NOTE: This comment, and the one proceeding it posted as “Will this be approved?” are a continuing of my – Betty Jeanne’s – prior exchange with Mr. Kiskel, which I was able to post using my own name and email. I have been unable to post these subsequent comments, with an indication that they would require approval, which I let Mr. Casper know about. This approval has not yet been granted, thus I am using a different name to see if that will allow me to post.) Mr. Kiskel – and whomever else might be interested: Here are some articles… Read more »

I hope this post will be approved.
I hope this post will be approved.
2 days ago

(NOTE: This comment, builds off of my – Betty Jeanne’s – prior exchange with Mr. Kiskel, which I was able to post using my own name and email. I have been unable to post these subsequent comments. Each time, I’ve received an indication that they would require approval, which I let Mr. Casper know about. This approval has not yet been granted, thus I am using a different name to see if that will allow me to post.)

Hopeful for post approval.
Hopeful for post approval.
2 days ago

Mr. Kiskel – and whomever else might be interested: Here are some articles detailing “the war on critical race theory”, which I recommend to all.   https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/13/opinion/critical-race-theory.html   http://bostonreview.net/race-politics/david-theo-goldberg-war-critical-race-theory   https://portside.org/2021-06-07/how-critical-race-theory-became-new-conservative-bogeyman   https://www.edweek.org/leadership/what-is-critical-race-theory-and-why-is-it-under-attack/2021/05   Here is common reference point that might be more helpful:   Dr. Elias Ortega, a longtime scholar of critical race theory and President of one of our UU seminaries, describes its origins as well as how it’s used (and misused) in current discourse. I recommend it to all UUs. His comments begin around 11:00:   https://youtu.be/V6lUM8IdO9w I look forward to hearing more from you, Mr. Kiskel.… Read more »

Attempting to post
Attempting to post
2 days ago

Mr. Kiskel – and whomoever else might be interested in these matters: Here are some articles detailing “the war on critical race theory”, which I recommend to all.   https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/13/opinion/critical-race-theory.html   http://bostonreview.net/race-politics/david-theo-goldberg-war-critical-race-theory   https://portside.org/2021-06-07/how-critical-race-theory-became-new-conservative-bogeyman   https://www.edweek.org/leadership/what-is-critical-race-theory-and-why-is-it-under-attack/2021/05   Here is common reference point that might be more helpful:   Dr. Elias Ortega, a longtime scholar of critical race theory and President of one of our UU seminaries, describes its origins as well as how it’s used (and misused) in current discourse. I recommend it to all UUs. His comments begin around 11:00:   https://youtu.be/V6lUM8IdO9w  I look forward to hearing more… Read more »

An attempt to post
An attempt to post
2 days ago

(NOTE: This comment is a follow up to my – Betty Jeanne’s – previous comments. I’ve been having trouble getting approval for my comments, and am attempting to post under a different name / heading. Apologies for the confusion.) Mr. Kiskel – and whomever else might be interested in these matters: Here are some articles detailing “the war on critical race theory”, which I recommend to all. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/13/opinion/critical-race-theory.html http://bostonreview.net/race-politics/david-theo-goldberg-war-critical-race-theory https://portside.org/2021-06-07/how-critical-race-theory-became-new-conservative-bogeyman https://www.edweek.org/leadership/what-is-critical-race-theory-and-why-is-it-under-attack/2021/05 https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2021/05/gops-critical-race-theory-fixation-explained/618828 Here is common reference point that might be helpful: Dr. Elias Ortega, a longtime scholar of critical race theory and President of one of our UU seminaries, describes… Read more »

Another attempt to post
Another attempt to post
2 days ago

(NOTE: This comment is a follow up to my – Betty Jeanne’s – previous comments. I’ve been having trouble getting approval for my comments, and am attempting to post under a different name / heading. Apologies for the confusion.)

Mr. Kiskel – and whomever else might be interested in these matters:

Here are some articles detailing “the war on critical race theory”, which I recommend to all.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/13/opinion/critical-race-theory.html

http://bostonreview.net/race-politics/david-theo-goldberg-war-critical-race-theory

https://portside.org/2021-06-07/how-critical-race-theory-became-new-conservative-bogeyman

https://www.edweek.org/leadership/what-is-critical-race-theory-and-why-is-it-under-attack/2021/05

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2021/05/gops-critical-race-theory-fixation-explained/618828

About "critical race theory"
About "critical race theory"
2 days ago

(NOTE: This comment is a follow up to my – Betty Jeanne’s – previous comments. There seems to be a technical issue requiring approval for my comments, so I am attempting to post under a different name / heading. Apologies for the confusion.) Mr. Kiskel – and whomever else might be interested in these matters: Here are some articles detailing “the war on critical race theory”, which I recommend to all.   https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/13/opinion/critical-race-theory.html   http://bostonreview.net/race-politics/david-theo-goldberg-war-critical-race-theory   https://portside.org/2021-06-07/how-critical-race-theory-became-new-conservative-bogeyman   https://www.edweek.org/leadership/what-is-critical-race-theory-and-why-is-it-under-attack/2021/05 https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2021/05/gops-critical-race-theory-fixation-explained/618828   Here is common reference point that might be helpful:   Dr. Elias Ortega, a longtime scholar of critical race… Read more »

An attempt to post
An attempt to post
2 days ago

(NOTE: This comment is a follow up to my – Betty Jeanne’s – previous comments. I’ve been having trouble getting approval for my comments, and am attempting to post under a different name / heading. Apologies for the confusion.) Mr. Kiskel – and whomever else might be interested in these matters: Here are some articles detailing “the war on critical race theory”, which I recommend to all. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/13/opinion/critical-race-theory.html http://bostonreview.net/race-politics/david-theo-goldberg-war-critical-race-theory https://portside.org/2021-06-07/how-critical-race-theory-became-new-conservative-bogeyman https://www.edweek.org/leadership/what-is-critical-race-theory-and-why-is-it-under-attack/2021/05 https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2021/05/gops-critical-race-theory-fixation-explained/618828 Here is common reference point that might be helpful: Dr. Elias Ortega, a longtime scholar of critical race theory and President of one of our UU seminaries, describes… Read more »

Will this post be approved?
Will this post be approved?
2 days ago

(NOTE: This comment, and the one proceeding it posted as “Will this be approved?” are a continuing of my – Betty Jeanne’s – prior exchange with Mr. Kiskel, which I was able to post using my own name and email. I have been unable to post these subsequent comments, with an indication that they would require approval, which I let Mr. Casper know about. This approval has not yet been granted, thus I am using a different name to see if that will allow me to post.) Mr. Kiskel – and whomever else might be interested: Here are some articles… Read more »

Testing for comment approval
Testing for comment approval
2 days ago

(NOTE: This comment, and the one proceeding it posted as “Will this be approved?” are a continuing of my – Betty Jeanne’s – prior exchange with Mr. Kiskel, which I was able to post using my own name and email. I have been unable to post these subsequent comments, with an indication that they would require approval, which I let Mr. Casper know about. This approval has not yet been granted, thus I am using a different name to see if that will allow me to post.) Mr. Kiskel – and whomever else might be interested: Here are some articles… Read more »

Hopeful for comment approval
Hopeful for comment approval
2 days ago

(NOTE: This comment, and the one proceeding it posted as “Will this be approved?” are a continuing of my – Betty Jeanne’s – prior exchange with Mr. Kiskel, which I was able to post using my own name and email. I have been unable to post these subsequent comments, with an indication that they would require approval, which I let Mr. Casper know about. This approval has not yet been granted, thus I am using a different name to see if that will allow me to post.) Mr. Kiskel – and whomever else might be interested: Here are some articles… Read more »

Will this post gain approval?
Will this post gain approval?
2 days ago

(NOTE: This comment, and the one proceeding it posted as “Will this be approved?” are a continuing of my – Betty Jeanne’s – prior exchange with Mr. Kiskel, which I was able to post using my own name and email. I have been unable to post these subsequent comments, with an indication that they would require approval, which I let Mr. Casper know about. This approval has not yet been granted, thus I am using a different name to see if that will allow me to post.) Mr. Kiskel – and whomever else might be interested: Here are some articles… Read more »

Attemping post - will it be approved?
Attemping post - will it be approved?
2 days ago

(NOTE: This comment, and the one proceeding it posted as “Will this be approved?” are a continuing of my – Betty Jeanne’s – prior exchange with Mr. Kiskel, which I was able to post using my own name and email. I have been unable to post these subsequent comments, with an indication that they would require approval, which I let Mr. Casper know about. This approval has not yet been granted, thus I am using a different name to see if that will allow me to post.) Mr. Kiskel – and whomever else might be interested: Here are some articles… Read more »

Hopeful for post approval.
Hopeful for post approval.
2 days ago

(NOTE: This comment, and the one proceeding it posted as “Will this be approved?” are a continuing of my – Betty Jeanne’s – prior exchange with Mr. Kiskel, which I was able to post using my own name and email. I have been unable to post these subsequent comments, with an indication that they would require approval, which I let Mr. Casper know about. This approval has not yet been granted, thus I am using a different name to see if that will allow me to post.) Mr. Kiskel – and whoever may also be interested: Here are some articles… Read more »

About "critical race theory"
About "critical race theory"
2 days ago

(NOTE: This comment is a follow up to my – Betty Jeanne’s – previous comments. I’ve been having trouble getting approval for my comments, and am attempting to post under a different name / heading. Apologies for the confusion.) Mr. Kiskel – and whomever else might be interested in these matters: Here are some articles detailing “the war on critical race theory”, which I recommend to all.   https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/13/opinion/critical-race-theory.html   http://bostonreview.net/race-politics/david-theo-goldberg-war-critical-race-theory   https://portside.org/2021-06-07/how-critical-race-theory-became-new-conservative-bogeyman   https://www.edweek.org/leadership/what-is-critical-race-theory-and-why-is-it-under-attack/2021/05 https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2021/05/gops-critical-race-theory-fixation-explained/618828   Here is common reference point that might be helpful:   Dr. Elias Ortega, a longtime scholar of critical race theory and President of… Read more »

Dennis McCarty
Dennis McCarty
2 days ago

Mr. Kiskel – and whomever else might be interested: Here are some articles detailing “the war on critical race theory”, which I recommend to all.   https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/13/opinion/critical-race-theory.html   http://bostonreview.net/race-politics/david-theo-goldberg-war-critical-race-theory   https://portside.org/2021-06-07/how-critical-race-theory-became-new-conservative-bogeyman   https://www.edweek.org/leadership/what-is-critical-race-theory-and-why-is-it-under-attack/2021/05   Here is common reference point that might be more helpful:   Dr. Elias Ortega, a longtime scholar of critical race theory and President of one of our UU seminaries, describes its origins as well as how it’s used (and misused) in current discourse. I recommend it to all UUs. His comments begin around 11:00:   https://youtu.be/V6lUM8IdO9w I look forward to hearing more from you, Mr. Kiskel.… Read more »

Tim Bartik
2 days ago
Reply to  Dennis McCarty

Hi Dennis: I agree with your point that it is important to decide what “critical race theory” is. As you point out, some conservatives are using this to critique any attempt to address racism. On the other hand, some folks who are defending current fashionable approaches to analyzing race are reluctant to admit that certain race trainings and curricula are, if not CRT, clearly influenced by CRT. So one definition of CRT is that it is simply a set of legal theories by law school professors. I personally am not a fan of those theories — I think that where… Read more »

Lee
Lee
2 days ago
Reply to  Tim Bartik

I read in this discussion here that CRT gets some things right — things that predate it according to one post. I read here that CRT gets some things wrong. I read here that people have narrow and wider definitions of CRT. As best as I can tell, something that is labeled CRT may or may not be right and may or may not be CRT. In short, I am finding the CRT label to be difficult to glean information from. Regarding DiAngelo, Kendi, and Okun you write “I think all three of these folks’ writings and approach to race… Read more »

David
David
1 day ago
Reply to  Lee

All theories have their insights and limits, their positives and negatives, what they can do and cannot do, and can fairly be critiqued. The great philosopher of science correctly wrote: “I want to defend society and its inhabitants from all ideologies, science included. All ideologies must be seen in perspective. One must not take them too seriously. One must read them like fairy-tales which have lots of interesting things to say but which also contain wicked lies, or like ethical prescriptions which may be useful rules of thumb but which are deadly when followed to the letter.” Also, CRT is… Read more »

Tim Bartik
1 day ago
Reply to  Lee

In my opinion, you have missed the mark. I think of these three writers, Okun’s writings should not be used at all in anti-racism trainings (e.g, I think they lack any value), and I think DiAngelo’s are also likely to be counter-productive. Kendi’s writings are more self-reflective, but when it comes to public policy, I think he has some very badly mistaken ideas which would make our society less fair and just, in the very unlikely event that they were implemented. So I think if Kendi’s writings are used, people should be exposed as well to writings that go against… Read more »

Tim Bartik
1 day ago
Reply to  Tim Bartik

And as for alternatives to these three writers (Okun, DiAngelo, Kendi), I would suggest the recent book by Heather McGhee, “The Sum of Us: What Racism Costs Everyone and How We Can Prosper Together”, which is a reasonable popular discussion that gets beyond a zero-sum-game mentality.

Lee
Lee
1 day ago
Reply to  Tim Bartik

Thank you for an excellent and well thought out response! Thank you, again. I would love the time to go through each point and discuss it further, ask questions and learn. I fear I don’t have the time for all that, but I can start a discussion and see where that goes. I think there is a disagreement, about points that don’t matter as much, that is slowing our ability to make real progress. In a society that never had racism, we would expect that there would be only the smallest of statistical fluctuations by race when it came to… Read more »

Dennis McCarty
Dennis McCarty
2 days ago

Well, okay. I’m seeing that my previous comment has not been approved. Perhaps too many citations? Let me just ask this. Have you read Charles Blow’s Column on Critical Race Theory in the Sunday (June 13) New York Times?

Do you have any comment?

Here’s the link: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/13/opinion/critical-race-theory.html

Frank Casper
Frank Casper
2 days ago

This is to let everyone here know that there is a problem with this site that I am trying to look into. It appears that to be in permanent monitor status and that posts need to monitored. This is not something we did. So please be patient while I try to determine what has happened.

Frank Casper
Frank Casper
2 days ago

I think the problem with auto-approval is fixed. All the posts that were pending should now have been posted.

i'm here for UU Beloved Community!
i'm here for UU Beloved Community!
2 days ago

<3 <3 <3 <3 <3 ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ <3 <3 <3 <3 <3

better parties.png